Reservations:
The whole of India is talking about reservations. NDTV, CNN-IBN and a whole lot of bloggers come up with exactly the same reasons as to why they all oppose reservations. No one’s thinking differently , the topic at hand by itself is quite old and beaten to death, I thought it wouldn’t be a bad idea to discuss a totally clichéd topic in a slightly different way.
Alright, so here goes it:
Now let’s take the 2 options we got at hand.
Option 1 – No reservations. What happens? India’s population is currently around 1,000,000,000. Out of this around 50% is effectively illiterate (this is different from actual illiteracy). If there are no reservations (assuming that the rate at which illiterates and literates contribute to our population growth is exactly equal), this percentage will remain the same (if not, illiteracy will increase). It’s not wrong to assume that 70% of the parents who are literate will educate their children properly, and 70% of the parents who are illiterate will NOT educate their children properly. In the remaining 30%, people like Rahul Mahajan and Sunil Bharathi Mittal will balance out. Educated folks like Rahul will effectively be illiterate (as they don’t behave like educated people anyway) and smart people like Mittal will be very literate even though they didn’t go through any formal education.
So, if we chose option 1 – India will continue to be the same. 50 % illiteracy will continue , the economic divide will keep expanding, and we all should sit back and hope that we’ll have more and more Sunil Mittals and Dirubhai Ambanis and fewer Rahul Mahajans.
Let’s take option 2. Say we have about 25% reservations. Let’s say 80% of the people who use this 25% reservation, are actually backward (the other 20% are people who buy OBC certificates - thanks to NDTV). These people will move into the literate category. Out of these people, let’s say 80% are effectively literate, we have 16% more people who are literate. Hope you guys got the complicated math here (0.8*0.8*0.25*100). If this were a case interview, I would have said: This sounds too high, let’s make it 10%.
So, what do we have now? 10% of the people would have moved from the illiterate to the literate category. Because of reservations, is there a chance that some people can move from the educated to the non-educated category? Nopes, no way. People, who planned to study medicine, might miss out studying medicine because of the reservations but they could always study something else. Maybe they could become a journalist and join NDTV and fight against the reservations. Basically, there’s no chance that someone who would have been in the educated category will become an illiterate because of reservations. Correct?
So, approx 10% of the people move from the non-educated side to the educated side (if our politicians implemented this whole thing properly- now that’s a whole new ball game). So, if we have to make a decision keeping in mind the overall growth of India, option 2 doesn’t sound too bad.
I know a lot has been said about how illiteracy should be corrected at the grassroots level and how the government should find ways to educate kids at the middle-school and high-school levels and not use reservations as a method to achieve whatever growth they are talking about. This is a point well-made, and a lot of organizations are working towards this. But thinking very carefully, reservations if implemented properly might not be a bad thing. Changes at the basic school level should happen in tandem with reservations.
There are a lot of other questions that need to be addressed. Is 25% an optimal number? We’ll be sacrificing some Sabeer Bhatia’s to gain a decent number of BPO engineers, but that’s the trade-off we’ll have to consider. There’s obviously more thought that needs to go into picking the right % for reservations, but the idea itself is not bad. The sad part is, no one – not anyone from NDTV, not anyone from Congress, not anyone from IIT/IIM has come up with some analysis on what this number should be, why it should be so etc. etc. There’s just blind opposition or support for/against reservations and that’s just very sad to know.
Update(from the comments section): Just so that more people can understand this point of view better:
Just wanted to add to that. I am not arguing for the sake of arguing here(Like in most other cases). I am just trying to assess the situation from a different angle.Take for example our class at SVCE. Say we had some 6 people from SC/ST ( rightly deserved SC/ST ) , I am pretty sure they are doing quite decently for themselves right now. Maybe SVCE helped them be in a position they are right now. Now, since those 6 people got into SVCE, some FC people went to SRM, Hindustan etc. Had they taken 7 people into SC/ST, then Murari ( who was the last person to get into EE Payment at SVCE) would have missed out and gone to SRM. Murari would have done fine anyway. He might have even gone to Stanford had he gone to SRM. But, the 7th SC/ST person might have needed SVCE's placement help to actually get the same job. Though this was added to get some comedy into the picture, hope you get my point !
Alright, so here goes it:
Now let’s take the 2 options we got at hand.
Option 1 – No reservations. What happens? India’s population is currently around 1,000,000,000. Out of this around 50% is effectively illiterate (this is different from actual illiteracy). If there are no reservations (assuming that the rate at which illiterates and literates contribute to our population growth is exactly equal), this percentage will remain the same (if not, illiteracy will increase). It’s not wrong to assume that 70% of the parents who are literate will educate their children properly, and 70% of the parents who are illiterate will NOT educate their children properly. In the remaining 30%, people like Rahul Mahajan and Sunil Bharathi Mittal will balance out. Educated folks like Rahul will effectively be illiterate (as they don’t behave like educated people anyway) and smart people like Mittal will be very literate even though they didn’t go through any formal education.
So, if we chose option 1 – India will continue to be the same. 50 % illiteracy will continue , the economic divide will keep expanding, and we all should sit back and hope that we’ll have more and more Sunil Mittals and Dirubhai Ambanis and fewer Rahul Mahajans.
Let’s take option 2. Say we have about 25% reservations. Let’s say 80% of the people who use this 25% reservation, are actually backward (the other 20% are people who buy OBC certificates - thanks to NDTV). These people will move into the literate category. Out of these people, let’s say 80% are effectively literate, we have 16% more people who are literate. Hope you guys got the complicated math here (0.8*0.8*0.25*100). If this were a case interview, I would have said: This sounds too high, let’s make it 10%.
So, what do we have now? 10% of the people would have moved from the illiterate to the literate category. Because of reservations, is there a chance that some people can move from the educated to the non-educated category? Nopes, no way. People, who planned to study medicine, might miss out studying medicine because of the reservations but they could always study something else. Maybe they could become a journalist and join NDTV and fight against the reservations. Basically, there’s no chance that someone who would have been in the educated category will become an illiterate because of reservations. Correct?
So, approx 10% of the people move from the non-educated side to the educated side (if our politicians implemented this whole thing properly- now that’s a whole new ball game). So, if we have to make a decision keeping in mind the overall growth of India, option 2 doesn’t sound too bad.
I know a lot has been said about how illiteracy should be corrected at the grassroots level and how the government should find ways to educate kids at the middle-school and high-school levels and not use reservations as a method to achieve whatever growth they are talking about. This is a point well-made, and a lot of organizations are working towards this. But thinking very carefully, reservations if implemented properly might not be a bad thing. Changes at the basic school level should happen in tandem with reservations.
There are a lot of other questions that need to be addressed. Is 25% an optimal number? We’ll be sacrificing some Sabeer Bhatia’s to gain a decent number of BPO engineers, but that’s the trade-off we’ll have to consider. There’s obviously more thought that needs to go into picking the right % for reservations, but the idea itself is not bad. The sad part is, no one – not anyone from NDTV, not anyone from Congress, not anyone from IIT/IIM has come up with some analysis on what this number should be, why it should be so etc. etc. There’s just blind opposition or support for/against reservations and that’s just very sad to know.
Update(from the comments section): Just so that more people can understand this point of view better:
Just wanted to add to that. I am not arguing for the sake of arguing here(Like in most other cases). I am just trying to assess the situation from a different angle.Take for example our class at SVCE. Say we had some 6 people from SC/ST ( rightly deserved SC/ST ) , I am pretty sure they are doing quite decently for themselves right now. Maybe SVCE helped them be in a position they are right now. Now, since those 6 people got into SVCE, some FC people went to SRM, Hindustan etc. Had they taken 7 people into SC/ST, then Murari ( who was the last person to get into EE Payment at SVCE) would have missed out and gone to SRM. Murari would have done fine anyway. He might have even gone to Stanford had he gone to SRM. But, the 7th SC/ST person might have needed SVCE's placement help to actually get the same job. Though this was added to get some comedy into the picture, hope you get my point !
Labels: controversy, politics
26 Comments:
hmm...there are at least two stands to every issue...and the bottom line is that what matters at any stage should be talent, motivation, hardwork not caste...it is a fact that caste has been destroying our country ever since anyone can remember...this reservation business is only going to fuel that destruction...it is true that there will probably be some good coming out of it...since any new move that is made in a society will benefit some and harm some...
1) it will help the motivated SC/ST people who don't have educational resources but what would happen to a person who does not why integration between two points in a curve is the area under that curve, if he/she were put in IIT bombay...of course a few would fight and learn even if they dont know and come out bright and successful and some would drop out since the house that is built on a weak foundation someday will fall...
2)of course these things might happen even to a FC person who came out as a state rank holder...he/she might drop out too with the pressure...
BUT...wherever these people are from and whatever the hell their damn caste is...they deserve a competition on equal grounds...since all that matters in the end is their will to become what they want to be...
that "will" will get them the IIM/IIt seats whoever they are...not reservations!!
By Anonymous, at 10:21 PM
Very interesting statistics...but some fundamental flaws.
FLAW No.1: What ultimately hinders the education of the backward castes? Is it their caste or is it their economic status? What is the point of reserving seats for someone who cannot afford the fees in the first place? The concept of reservation is so aggressively pursued by the government because of the vote bank it gathers and the fact that it requires least financial outflow. Keeping in mind that it is the economic backwardness that is an obstacle to education, as I have always supported, economic reservations are the key along with extensive scholarships and financial aid.
FLAW No.2:Your literacy/illiteracy argument in your option 2 where you said FC's who couldn't make it into engineering can explore other avenues is based on the premise that all people want is some form of education, and it doesn't matter what field it is in. But everyone has interests and passions and everyone who works towards them with determination should not be denied their quest because of no fault of theirs. A guy who misses out on engineering or medicine is going to get some education, but why should he compromise on what he wants when he was well qualified for it?
FLAW No.3: Well you have agreed with the need to strengthen education at the grassroot level. But you still think reservation is a viable option. Well let us just retrace the path. Why does a person need reservation- because he has not scored well enough to make it. Why has he not scored enough- because economic backwardness has prevented him from getting a quality education. So the government should look at either supporting him economically at the school level or revamp the government schools raising the quality to meet that of any good private school. Once this is done, the playing field is levelled and the need for reservations is obviated. What is the point of putting the condom on the baby...if you get the analogy....
By Dreamer, at 11:46 AM
@dreamer...
he he condom on a baby...cha cha...
@ prem...i totally agree with him...its not the caste thing that holds these people back ...its their lack of wealth...and for that reservations are definitely not teh answer since thats only going to punish someone for having had money and i'm a true blue capitalist.
By Anonymous, at 3:11 PM
Dreamer and Madhavi - I almost totally (except the condom analogy) agree with you. Everyone knows what you are saying is right.
Maybe I didn't make my point clearly enough: But here it is again.
If the government isnt going to make concrete investments at the grassroots level, and if we still want India to grow, reservations will help in achieving that aim if implemented properly.
Reservations isn't the best solution to reduce illiteracy, but its better than no solution.
We still haven't completed the Lok Paritran argument. Waiting for your response.
By Prem, at 4:24 PM
Dreamer: Just wanted to add to that. I am not arguing for the sake of arguing here(Like in most other cases). I am just trying to assess the situation from a different angle.
Take for example our class at SVCE. Say we had some 6 people from SC/ST ( rightly deserved SC/ST ) , I am pretty sure they are doing quite decently for themselves right now. Maybe SVCE helped them be in a position they are right now.
Now, since those 6 people got into SVCE, some FC people went to SRM, Hindustan etc. Had they taken 7 people into SC/ST, then Murari ( who was the last person to get into EE Payment at SVCE) would have missed out and gone to SRM. Murari would have done fine anyway. He might have even gone to Stanford had he gone to SRM. But, the 7th SC/ST person might have needed SVCE's placement help to actually get the same job. Though this was added to get some comedy into the picture, hope you get my point !
We'll talk more about this.
By Prem, at 4:33 PM
Hahahaha...hilarious dude...I was laughing for 15 minutes!!!
By Rudra, at 9:08 PM
@prem...
I'm going to state some facts here that i know are accurate and i'm going to make a few assumptions which i think are valid from the premise of the facts...in SVCE, the 2004 passouts were subject to choosing option A/B and that was silent evil that sprung up from underneath in the name of fairness. SVCE was apparently doing this so most of its students get placed but what it was actually doing was protecting students from competition. Why i say this is that we got a speech saying in 2003-2004 no one wanted to come to campus placement and in order to make the companies come for placement this new A?B rule was invoked. 70% of student in 2004 passouts chose A and got placed and 75% of students in 2005 chose A and got placed. So the placements which were apparently low in the previous years became 100% in 2004 and 2005...not only in SVCE...all over the place...What i'm getting at here is that companies go anywhere and everywhere to find the people they want for jobs...being in SVCE wouldn't have done a ST/SC person any better than him/her being in SRM...100% of people in SRM, SSN, Crescent Bharath got placed last year. When the industry is looking good and looking to hire people i dont see the reservation being of the slightest use not even the one you had mentioned...since the "college" factor doesn't matter for these companies no more...they are looking for people...
you talked about implementing reservation properly...if reservation were implemented "properly" it would negate the need for it itself...all the government needs to do is to make sure that maximum number of kids go to school...implementing policies which would enable kids who're poor to go to school at least until they can learn by themselves is the way to go...not reserving seats for people at a high level of education when many of them can neither afford nor utilise it effectively probably.
though it might seem far fetched they should make public education free for kids till 5th std or so...maybe india doesnt have the resources to implement such a policy or maybe the politicians and mayors are too busy filling their own pockets but that would be the right thing to do when possible...not reservations...
in 1999 types there was that huge cry over the women's reservation bill thing being passed in the parliament...everyone was thinking that it was ridiculous except the sworn feminists...but a true feminist would want to get that seat without taking a shortcut...
reservation by basis itself does not make sense because it can never benefit all...i can say later that leave the SC/ST...there are ppl who are of backward class and we have suffered a lot and have no money or resources...why wouldnt we deserve reservation...soon the kashmiris will say they have been thro hell and lost all their land/money...why wudnt they deserve reservation...
the state that people are in does not come about all by caste...its cuz of a myriad of factors...and when that is the case no reservation will help them...you deal with the problem at the source...if u get a fever cuz of an infected open wound u dont take crocin to solve the problem...u need to sterilize the wound and treat it to make the fever eventually go away...
i think i have digressed quite a bit...but hey i liked it!
By Anonymous, at 9:20 PM
Hey Rudra, Thanks machi ! Sorry for Kouthivitufying you in one of my comments !
Hey Mads- "I'm going to state some facts here that i know are accurate and i'm going to make a few assumptions which i think are valid from the premise of the facts"-thats a pretty hardcore quote from u !
1) anyway- at the SC/ST level college did make a difference to the placement(atleast in my batch). During a sunshine market , things might be easy, but not otherwise
2) yeah yeah all that is right - but hope you got the point I am trying to make. Its totally different from what you guys are talking about !
By Prem, at 9:06 AM
why is there so much opposition to reservations and not ANY opposition to management quota !
By Prem, at 9:18 AM
Prem,
I appreciate the fact that you are trying to analyse this issue from a different perspective. And you keep harping on the fact that we should do that too. Till now 'anti-reservation' arguments have been trying to ensure it is not implemented, that is why there is staleness and redundancy. So if for a second, we accept the inevitability of reservations, and I try to view this differently, clarify these things:
1. Reservations are based on the premise that Backward castes are also economically backward. Are you sure they all are?
2. If they are not, how are you going to filter out economically well to do candidates who have just not made an effort to study well and can make use of this loophole to get into wherever they want.
3. The age old question of how you are going to ensure no forgery of caste certificates?
Let me also make it clear, that I am not pig-headedly anti reservation, but I just see that the intentions of its implementation are not as much saintly, or aimed at moving the country forward as they are political.
Anyway if you have the time and the patience read through(I said read through, not skip alternate paragraphs:), like you usually do):
http://dcubed.blogspot.com/2006/05/open-letter.html
http://www.indiatogether.org/2006/may/opi-nkcresign.htm
By Dreamer, at 12:54 PM
hardcore a??? apaadii naa? anyway considering it IS sunshine market are reservations the answer? what IS the problem?
and i never said anywhere that management seats are good...i dont think they are...but you see the freedom associated with management seats? they're not forced upon...a private school can have management seats or can not...its upto them to do as they please...now that is freedom...you cannot force people to do things they dont want to...
in this case lots of schools are being forced to do this...and the use of force against a person or institution's will is the worst thing one can possibly do...
By Anonymous, at 9:06 PM
Kaushik
1) Yup- I dont know for sure. I am guessing 70% of them are economically backward. and Maybe around 80% of them are unaware about education even if they have the money. But , 95% of the SC/ST and OBC people i have seen at SVCE are not rich. The BC folks are probably richer than a lot of FC folks !
2) and 3) have to be stopped some how. These problems are very similar to how a lot of people (even FC rich ppl) give money and change their marks.
The problem is : Making changes at the basic level is never going to happen. Even though reservations are implemented for political reasons, the outcome is not totally screwed up as it is made out to be.
Madhavi,
Well - "the use of force against a person or institution's will is the worst thing one can possibly do... " This is what you said.
Read it again and tell me if you didnt mean it. Then - Reservations are not wrong. Cos the Government is doing what it wants to do !
The fake-OBC people are doing what they want to do !
The people giving money are doing what they want to do !
If something done is "not correct", some force has to be applied to prevent it from happening !
By Prem, at 9:27 AM
i meant people who own things can do whatever they want with what they own...the government has no right over private instituitons cuz they're PRIVATE...they're forcing their will upon private institutions say X which maybe wants no reservation for its admissions...
"if something is not correct there should be force against it"
the only time force is valid is if its in self defense...the thing abt force is that it is good only when its implemented against force itself...
so what ur saying is that when there is so much bribery and corruption around since its "not correct" i have to force those people not to do it...like kamal hassan did in indian...
when the govt decides to force in a reservation rule against something that they think is "not correct" why be so inconsistent about it...why not do the same against poverty...since thats people deprived of something too...except its work/money rather than education...they can force in a rule saying no one can earn more than rs.XXX since we have poverty and 50% of jobs has to go to people who need it regardless of whether they do their jobs or not...and bang!!! we have a socialist nation...so AMD can hire people based on need rather than talent...gee that sounds "correct" doesnt it? :)...
maybe i olarified...*grin* but u get the point...we'll talk in person!!
By Anonymous, at 12:39 PM
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
By Prem, at 3:39 PM
http://www.orkut.com/CommMsgs.aspx?cmm=54250&tid=2469263819746052047
chk that out...u might need an orkut account...
By Anonymous, at 5:15 PM
http://www.indianexpress.com/sunday/story/6730.html
I rest my case!
By Dreamer, at 5:25 PM
dreamer: This is a corrpution issue. The point we are discussing is a policy issue. The policy leads to corruption, no doubt, but is the policy itself not useful?
By Prem, at 6:51 PM
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
By Dreamer, at 7:47 PM
Prem,
How effective is a policy going to be when the means of its implementation is almost irreversibibly flawed?
It is not possible to isolate the policy from its implementation while analysing its efficacy. We are talking about a decision which is going to have real world consequences. You are talking like a doctor who is going to cut open someone'e heart saying "The operation will do wonders for you, but I am a little drunk today"!
By Dreamer, at 8:03 PM
so, does the doctor not do the operation at all?
By Prem, at 8:24 PM
no...some other doc does the operation!!
By Anonymous, at 8:42 PM
Not until he is sober! If he cannot become sober ever then never!
By Dreamer, at 8:42 PM
i like mine better...:)
By Anonymous, at 8:46 PM
so did u beat Dreamer's all time best yet, Prem?
Unfortunately I am not politically astute and rather unimaginative in terms of generating/defending points of view and therefore am unable to add to this inspired discussion !!
Its been an entertaining read.
By mucastic, at 3:16 AM
Hey mucastic : Not bad....finally someone decided to comment ...Dreamer is tough to beat, esspecially with all the following he has .. but think I beat Rudra's all time best !!
good luck with NITIE- have a wonderful time there !
By Prem, at 9:21 AM
Hi Prem,
Great read and nice discussion to follow..Guess this must have been the largest ever number of comments u must have had...although i know 80% of it is from UTA who knows u and ur blog..
anyways my two cents with ur qn as to Y there's not so much opposition to mgmt quota..
1.Reservation and quota based on caste so far as much as the admissions are concerned are implemented in such a way that they could be part of either the general quota or the reservation quota while the FCs are limited only to the General quota.This is very active a reason as to why the
huge chunk of the public who is relying on the general quota is against reservation!!
I dont see a point where people who would go for a mgmt seat (logically wud do it only if they cant get thro a regular quota..even the wealthiest would like to retain the wealth :) )will also compete with the unreserved quotas.So the general public where most of the crowd is the mass which is looking for an opening through the general quota would not care for whats gng on in the 10-20% mgmt quota which they r not even aware of..
2.Secondly if u remember our admissions got delayed by 15 days bcos of the status-quo issued by the court on minority status.In subtlety the govt is trying to scrap out or minimise the hindrance to the meritorous candidates to achieve excellence.
I hope u guys would agree with this!!
By Subhashri, at 2:37 AM
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